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 Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells

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Morgoth

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PostSubject: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:15 am

This stuff is fundamentally broken and has left a really fucking sour taste in my mouth and I've never wanted less to pvp in any server than I do here when I encounter near instant spell regen wizard or onhit dispell every single hit on a bg with a 20 roll dispelling my 38 cleric.....

I cannot even pvp with my 38 druid vs a 29 wiz pm because he has unlimited Globes and I ran out of my 15 dispells, how the hell should this be possible and balanced in any sense of the word ever?

Wizards should have to BALANCE their spellbook for what they need, you want `16 globes? okay spend the slots for it and miss out on something else. this is fundamentally broken as hell and I'm not going to even bother pvping when these are on.

check your balance please.
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Ronin5432



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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:49 pm

I think sepll regen adds much needed flavor to an old game. The time and effort that went into it massly underappreciated. I do agree with that wizards are the most powerful mages at this point in the game, but i also think they should be, to have instant spell regen you need a -large- investment that should be worth the cost. I think your issue is you are fightig a mage with a mage... like seriously you can expect to win solo mage everytime like a wiz pm or a highlvl druid, i would recommend a teo handing build like a monk dwarf, or the righr dexter to hit them mage scunts Smile) gl
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Morgoth

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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:32 pm

DC wizards lose nearly nothing actually, they're already happy with no ac or disc, it's literally almost no different build to a different server, but they have instant regen on every spell, it's broken as hell and I love wizards.
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Highv Priest
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:14 am

The issue is nothing stops the druid from having infinite spells either. Wizard just gets it easier.

Additionally he is right. So much work went into designing that system that It's universally modifiable. I could just make globes not regen at all or significantly slower. Nothing has to be done blanket.

On the topic of dispel on hit... that's always been in nwn. Blackstaff/holysword and such. The only difference is BG also gained it to make it more flavorful against paladin.

The 20 rolls could be removed though. I think you're making the assumption this stuff can't be modified easily, but nothing is hardcore at this point.
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lolthatguy

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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:53 am

I had suggested that we remove the auto 20 dispel as well as make BG dispel be based off their character level as a percentage. 30 BG could get some kind of bonus like +10 or +20%. It really just depends on how much of a sacrifice people think 30 BG is. I feel like the scaling percentage is fair since their dispel is BG/2 and also, they get bonus feats earlier than a paladin would, and they don't have to dump wisdom to get their ab through spells.

As for the infinite spell regen, I had petitioned for it to be removed entirely because I thought it was largely unbalanced, after it was nerfed pretty much no one used it however. At this point I feel like we should just leave it as is, I've seen a few infinite spell druids around. Though I do miss having casters with a finite spellbook. I could go either way, I but I feel like all or none would be most preferred. If we make all of the useful spells regen longer there's really no point in having in having infinite spell regen, we saw that with the last nerf.
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ThorVeras



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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:20 pm

This is kinda history. what morgoth say is cause he was emotional about losing a fight on pvp by a new guy, but im not new to Nwn neither online i play since 2003 Nwn, i know what i talking about. People will be mad at any loss or the possibility of not winning someone on pvp and will grief or get emotional and take stuff personal.

If you present me facts and reality. I prefer numbers like i did present, 7/10 people on the server have Blackguards on builds. I see a mage rarely, i see more clerics than mages. I always see some kinda of assassin/rogue/shadow dancer. I NEVER SAW a druid until he fight me. I did a Dragon build but dragons are not possible here, even the builds who are on the forums are not possibile anymore because dragon shape need a 21 lvls of druid and not anymore just 5 shapes.
Dragon dont merge weapons and the itens of just merge high score, you cant make a 12 + iten here so you need to try buff a lot and pray to some BG dont dispell everything cause you cant cast on dragon form either only epic spells and special abilities, and there is none that can save your sorry ass. Thrust me i spend the las 48 hours trying new builds for the dragon.
Druid/bg/wiz, druid/cleric/monk. druid/dwarf defender/monk it simple dont work. The +20 ab cap gets on the whirlwind atack too the max ab spamming whirlwind atack i could achive was 74 and was very good, but the normal ab for a dragon WITH BUFFS is the same as the EPIC DRACOLICH buffed. 63 ab. The maximum AC can reach over 110 with improved expertise at cost of ab being less than 55 but ac dont mean much when you can be dispelled, people regen 40+ per round and people atacking you with 6 to 10 atacks per round being a 20.

Now returning to the topic here:

What happen he was mad cause i did a build the best i could and he could not counter that with a divine caster. He keep saying mages have the most powerfull spells and why do they need that. If obvius they are the most powerfull casters cause they are not half warrior they are just casters. Dont mean you can combo you can but not as good as any half caster.

Cleric have buffs and and 3/4 ab as druid, druids have less buffs but have shapes. And here druid buffs help even more fight with +2 ab and str bulls. I think the druid spells Storm of Veagence was not working, i know for sure grease is not making you fall just slow speed.

Even with what he say i losed to a cleric on a 1x1 fight. Was kinda cheap cause he used a spell to disarm 50 traps at once i did put and on server i was thinking traps could not be disarmed by that spell i read someplace.

But back again on topic. Clerics can buff AC, AB immunities and even use spells to kill they have some spell with no save as well. For a 3/4 fighter is pretty good.
Druids have shapes, like i say you can just became a elemental and knockdown a mage to death or a dragon. Green dragon is immune to acid shealt, if you use the shaper suit you can add some nice regen. If you are from a guild and with regen more focus with conjuration, you can easy Reach more than 100 regen per round long term and dificult to dispell.

Wizard you can combo with the new stuff on the server but always at a cost, is very dificult to have high evasion dc if you focus on disable dc spells while focusing on getting X intel. You not going to even try to fight. My mage with +20 ab have 45ab, this cant hit only str players who will smash you down to bits in close combat even you with acid shelt or any shield on.

I was happy to make this mage. The dragon i did not kill a single person in pvp, in vanilla i would kill easy some types of char but them i maded an AA and the AA was killing and stealing some kills. But AA is still very weak, much people have ways to not get hit by ranged and normal AC here is like 82++, aa is a 73ab that with 9 fighter lvls only 1 wiz and all AA is kinda maxed Ab for an AA. And with bless and aid. This is 45% chance of the hightest AB char to not hit someone. As a ranged with 63 ac i need to hit and run for my life. Is impossible to even think fight 2x1.
The wizard on the other side i could take 2 chars if they just go blind at me, but them some of the people there became smart with hit and run tatic, knockdown heal knockdown and i died a lot of times again.
That for me was fair. What is not fair is when you make something and no one can kill you and you dont have counters only yourself can counter yourself. That is what i call unbalaced.
Like i say before, when the server reach 7/10 mages i will agree mages are too op. While there is 7/10 Bg dudes dispelling everything even pure 40 casters i would keep and eye out for that.


Now, i hate when people just complaing and dont present changes. This sucks. I new here still studying how can the server be more balanced. But i think most balance can come in form of items.
And normaly most inbalace will come at same cost. As i can see right now. BG DEX builds are the best they dont lose in anything. And because DEX weapons are so or even more powerful than STR guys, STR looks kinda weak.

Some notes:

- Grease dont make you fall *dont know if this a bug*
- See traps is disarming all traps, i think if you cast more than once or multiple times happens as i saw that * i look some place was just to look at them*
- Dragon claws and dont get elemental damage from weapon *maybe is intended dunno*
- Elemental forms even with the Shaper Armor only add Armor atributes
- Rogue traps that are not doing any damage at all are, fire, eletric, frost. I think just sonic is doing damage.
- Epic eletrical trap have DC 1.
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lolthatguy

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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:24 pm

STR builds are alright I think, a lot of the people who play Dex builds complain that str is too OP, of course, they have their biases. People who play str claim that Dex based is too op. Dex BGs an assassins are definitely strong, for like I would like to see BG dispel nerfed in some way, perhaps with what I suggested. If anyone has an alternative suggestions they should feel free to voice their opinion on the matter. For the record, there are A LOT of good weapons for STR based characters, both medium and large. I don't think people are all that aware how strong some of them are, I added a few to further incentivize STR builds.

For what it's worth, I've seen that dex based characters are typically better for duels(higher ac), and STR(higher disc, higher saves) is typically better for team fights, there however are exceptions to these trends. Skill plays a huge factor, some people have hugely OP builds and can't do jack with them while others play ostensible garbage and can clean house when they really shouldn't be able to.
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:26 pm

Also find traps will find ALL traps within its radius, except for epic traps, which can't be stacked. You have to get within five meters of an epic trap to actually remove it once it's been found. Normal traps can be removed en masse because they're stackable... most servers disallow trap stacking, but they also decrease the radius of find traps to compensate.
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ThorVeras



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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:44 pm

Yes i was looking some weapons on your merchant, indeed there is some that deals base 100 damage 250 crits and with special stuff like the Dark Ritual Axe.


I dont like much big nerfs, i dont think the dispel BG is like broken i think would just need a fix for the roll 20 dispell everything. If some way can dispell less stuff or aim for some stuff less important first maybe would be good, but them, assassin and bg have like 7 8 atacks per round with epic haste so i dont know.

You prob right, maybe just get out the 20 roll, i dont know i just dont want to see underpowered either.

Talking to people specialy new people that are coming to the server i can see what everyone wants, they want power. They want to feel powerful, that hey can kill someone and is not impossible to do it. When it is the fun start to fade away because no matter how better you get feeling that underpowered is a bad feeling


For the dragon to be somewhat good i want to suggest some stuff:

- Make DC of grease highter but with 1round per/2 lvls of druid duration or 1/3.
This will make him could reach for me atacks hits while the guy is on the ground, and people can avoid either trying to get out the area or by the reduced duration, if the Dragon want to recast he need to get out of dragon form recast some place and he prob wont have a very good regen time on that.

- Improve some dc for druid spells specialy conjuration, but dont improve much and trade with time, i dont want have an extended stonehold holding everyone on pvp, i just want to have more chance with him specialy for improving dragon fighting and druid fighting.

- Better can he merge some weapon +7 +8 or more if have ? So he can improve a little his AB ?
I think clerics need better Undead summon they have greater undead summon but is equaly to the mage dracolich or warlord, maybe a dracolich for cleric lvl 38 and something even more bad ass at lvl 40 pure cleric.

- The balor VII is not that powerfull i think at lvl 40 you sacrifice a lot to get that, could a lvl 40 summoner get a Better Balor ?
- The azer is fantastic i just want to thank you for that design is super. I dont know about the reduction but he just seens to die a lot faster.
- To improve the summons we need just make a formula thinking on player buffs.
- About the druid, a pure lvl 40 druid without disciple or tumble could get a legendary familiar or something like that.

- Also, some of the special atacks of the weapons in game are so super awsome, i think we need more effects that really are userfull and fun. I just got an dagger that teleports me if im stealth and that was super ultra fun.
Maybe some stuff like this to good usuable weapons for fighters, NWN vanilla dont have much love for fighters at the end levels, and is just a matter of making some abilities.



All this need a LOT of work so i must say i dont if it is possible because we ALL have lives outside this game. Still is just some sugestions to make the game more fun and of course is IF POSSIBLE.

Im really enjoying some cool stuf here, i want this server to never die if needed i could host.
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ThorVeras



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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:49 pm

So if you cast find traps within 5 meters you disarm them all ? I did not understand that.
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lolthatguy

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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:55 pm

People have complained that summons were overpowered, and still, some of them are pretty insane. Balor used to be way stronger than it is now, at least the level VII balor. I think altering 6th, 7th and 8th level summons might be the thing to do next. I'm apprehensive about making the dracolich or any other current summon stronger because when used in tandem with other spells they can be pretty devastating/annoying.

People also seem to hate druids, and I can understand why. They have a variety of spells that are pretty strong, and a lot of them are within the conjuration school. Last I checked grease worked as intended but I'll have to check it again when I get the time today or tomorrow. You can get greases DC up to around 35-36 iirc, which isn't bad considering that it goes through spellcraft.
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:15 pm

Find traps will find & remove all normal traps within a 30 meter radius. Find traps will FIND epic traps within a 30 meter radius, once found you have to go within five meters of them to disarm them completely. Normal can be stacked, epic can't, they also need to be like 10 or so meters away from other traps whether they be normal or epic.
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ThorVeras



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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:14 pm

Epic you mean rogue ?

Normal you mean epic non rogue ?


For me epic are the ones with dc 35 eletric and all hehe the vanilla ones. Maybe we should call devastating traps the ones with dc 50 60.
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Morgoth

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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:45 pm

@highv
Perhaps, but a blanket reduction in regeneration time would be best, right now every spell is free, wizards never needed that in the first place imo, however I've only been here 3 weeks so some regeneration could have merit.

@thor, new guy, yep I got here 3 weeks ago, so I'm new too, and I guess I was silly to assume a 29 caster lvl wizard was immortal to a 38 druid, my bad.

Hexs ideas for bg dispell is great, bg shouldn't dispell every hit and 20 roll should go
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:02 pm

A 38 druid with infinite spells can outdo a 29 wizard with infinite spells, they just don't get very good DC on spells. The change basically shoehorns wizards into DC casters, and makes clerics/druids have poor DC if they choose to go infinite, which most tend to do. The only thing I would change further is probably the binding spells, I would put cooldowns on each of them.. perhaps for a round. The spam isn't good for pvp, being that there's no casting action.
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:46 pm

mages are op as fuck, thats what dropped the player base before and still fuck all has been done about it, still cheesy high dc (59 fkn dc ffs) insane high dmg infinite spells. when a mage has DR and high dmg sheath and can literally be knocked down non stop without having to cast a spell vs an enemy, and the enemy kills itself from acid sheath and you can't run away too heal while they're kd'd bc they'll hit you with a 59 dc disable spell (death spell)... thats some bull ish. mages are still so so so broken
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:47 pm

but yeh i wish str would get a boost only str builds i can think of that are usefull are barbs
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:49 pm

it's funny how you made it so you get bonuses without taking tumble or discipline, but with all the bonuses you get without getting ac or discipline, you don't fkn need any which i think is dumb as fuck. why reward something for not having discipline and ac?
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:28 am

59 DC is sort of high, I agree, but you have to acknowledge the fact that the things you sacrifice make it more or less an undesirable outcome. Casters get higher DCs if they don't have disc/tumble because that makes them essentially the penultimate glass cannons, they can be kded and hit constantly without any real defense against it other than using their spells to try and flip the outcome.

Barbarians go through warding easily if they're high level, and so do rangers. WMs can kill non pms very easily. Saves can be inflated easily to avoid certain death or disables from very high, yet fragile DC mages. In an environment where there are casters on both sides, each sides casters ultimately become very weak once dispelled, and this is doubly the cast for no disc/tumble mages because they rely wholly on spells.
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ThorVeras



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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:59 pm

The ways to kill a mage are simple:

BG dispel destroy wizard BG have super High DC, that was tested in pvp, i was the wizard and there was 2 ways to deal with bg that i could kill him. Summon stuff and cover behing in AA hit and run tatics, or pray he dont dispell right away with him 6 to 8 atacks everything a got:
Use itens omg... dont just blind run to kill wizard, people are not using itens are just running and atacking blind. Look youtube HighV using a FIGHTER with hitting and run tatics. That was a very good way i learned how to pvp.
Knockdown and them run use iten them knockdown again, fuck wizard.
I got owned by some stun hit when someone dispelled me. Was dc 62 still i think was fair match and fun. 62dc vs will for a stun that last a lot is very VERY strong but not in any way OVERPOWERED. People need to stop crying when losing pvp.
AA just kill wizard really easy but you need know how to use. The Range you can cast a spell is ALWAYS shorter than what AA can fire so hit and run is a very good tatic. Other thing to consider. AA damage bypass ANY non palemaster wizard.
Barbarian or combinations bypass damage red to any non pm chars too. And if you got low will or for you going to be affect one way or another for the aura ``will`` or the dev atack ``fort``.
I losed to a shifter but was only one battle i think i can kill a shifter with better tatics so i dont have much experience on that fight
True see is kinda overpowered cause you can see any hipster. But again hipsters are too powerful cause combos. I would like to true see grant you see invisibility and +40 in spot or something like that, but i dont know how would affect the world so is kinda of a test.
hipsters are easy cause of true see. But i did lose to a hipster monk because his speed and hit and run.

Now how wizard at least me was killing people.

- Casters without regen, i just used protection every time and recast spells on them. And some summons helped me too. Wizards are great vs others casters if is lvl 38 vs 38 if is lower depends on the build.
- Fighters blind, i just let the reck my protections as im going to be some kinda tanky and they just dont heal or knock me down.
- Monks, i pray to them not have Sr if they have i relly only on shields so i pray they dont have damage reduction and if have they just try to run blind at me taking some damage to some summon kill him.
- Wizards, trick fight is a vs where who connects spells wins.
- AA, was funny i fought 2 AAs and they dont run they come at you like a blind fighter would do, i think that was the easiest fight cause they dont have that much Fort to not take some DC spells so i just use DC spells on them.
- Bg i pray for a lot of stuffs on this fight cause they would trample me no joke, losed 3 of 4 fights and that one is because the guy rolled 1 on fort roll for a disable spell. First i pray they dont have charisma and no bonus to for or will so i at least can cast some stuff to disable them, them second i pray they dont hit me hard with dispel, them third i pray they dont use tatics to kill me. The way i fight them is always with summons and hit and run, if i have some lucky and dont be dispelled i can tank but if not i need try do damage far away when possible or try to recast protection stuffs if did not get knockdown.
- Str and Dex dudes without any BG or Paladin wizards can have a great edge cause protections and dc spells.
- Any bypass damage reductions char like AA or Barb will prob obliterate me but summons, dc spells and hit run and hide tatics can turn to a victory.


People complaing about dc 59 but i just got hit by a dc 62 stun hit, this obliterate any low ac char. ANY as itens +2 will + and wisdom dude will never reach 62. But i still think that is not overpowered is just countering someone as like i say before, i dont see the player base with like 7 out of 10 people are monks.
I see some players forget to combo itens with the Chars, that sucks for you but there is a test zone for that.


What i want badly is a way to improve the dragon dude or even some cool shifter forms.
I always get obliterated to anyone and everyone no matter what build i do. The positive side of the dragon is Ac can reach stable 86 to 88 and go with short buffs to even more than 101 but that for a low ab with long duration buffs reaching 58 and short reaching 65.
A dragon cant recast, i can exit the form there is a bost on speed, but mostly players have a great bust to speed as well, and buffs end fast.
I tryed whirlwind atack with shifting the bad is i mostly do so low damage that is not worthy for the extra ab. People regenerate too fast.


I see regeneration on the server is a big deal as you can always run and buffers are normaly fucked. But for the other side i think STR and DEX fighters need that to fight against that kinda of buffers so i dont know how to balance that.
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:46 pm

yeah i think regen can be a little problem, not too big of a concern but it kinda encourages running around to get ur health back which can be a poblem honestly something myself and many other players do with pdk final stand.

and it's still fuck mage for me lol! Cool
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ThorVeras



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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:51 pm

Is kinda insane but some people reaching 50 regen is not dificult with all the regen options and the ``guild regen``.

Would be cool to have some options to the guildless too, but the regen is still a problem i think.
Maybe strong regens for shifters pure fighters ``as a pure fighter i mean someone that dont buff``
And weak regen for spellcasters without focus on conj.
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:24 am

Thor wrote:
Maybe strong regens for shifters pure fighters ``as a pure fighter i mean someone that dont buff`And weak regen for spellcasters without focus on conj.


this seems like an arbitrary buff, and one that doesn't seem to fit. Your rational is to give classes that you think are bad, more regen, when they could just be buffed in a different way?

pure fighter is a very specific 'build'
non-conjuration focused mages are still good
regen might make some sense for shifters.. but still, why not just buff their shapes to make them more powerful?
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Buffs are something that are kinda weak specialy for shifters.

For normal people they will just get unbuffed with the massive BG player base or casters dispells.
For shifter is even worst as they tend to focus on shifting to rebuf they need to get out of the shifter and buf making them much much vunerable, as others already are good withouts buffs and became better with.


To tell the truth right now i dont see any way we could improve the balance. I think we need to look more the player base and what people are doing to see what is going on so we can get rid of things unbalanced.
On side note, never considered making this server a low rp high pvp server ? I think would be fun to players control territory, armies, can have some soldiers to command the spell that make 5 undeads is so great. Make me see a little experience of how that would be like.
Battle between armies and you as general, maybe could even gather equip for your troops so using your money to make itens for soldiers. Next level would be soldiers leveling and being your generals.

Maybe is just a dream but still a very fun idea.

NOTE:
- I tried a cleric and a druid with quicken III and they did not regen the spells might be a bug ?


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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:25 pm

Thor wrote:
On side note, never considered making this server a low rp high pvp server ? I think would be fun to players control territory, armies, can have some soldiers to command the spell that make 5 undeads is so great. Make me see a little experience of how that would be like.
Battle between armies and you as general, maybe could even gather equip for your troops so using your money to make itens for soldiers. Next level would be soldiers leveling and being your generals.

Maybe is just a dream but still a very fun idea.

this is an entirely different game lmao
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PostSubject: Re: Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells   

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Get rid of spell regen, get rid of or heavily nerf onhit dispells
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