proposed fighter changes

1 ab base + 1 per 10 levels of fighter if you have epic weapon spec (does not apply if you are +3 monk, +10 pm, or 10+ rdd)

1 ac per 5 levels of fighter (does not apply if you are +3 monk, +10 pm, or 10+ rdd) ac is changed to 1/10 if you have under 25 str?

dodge item based off your con mod or parry skill / 5, whichever, will work if you are a pm or rdd, need certain amount of fighter levels to gain this bonus however? like 15? and over 25 str

I'm good with this, fighter pushed a lot of builds to near OP ranges and this is a more normalized option to it's current effects.

So is this going in? Do I now have to delete every toon I made with 6 fighter levels to net +4ab and rebuild them?

Nah I'm simply saying I have no complaints.

like i said before, and most ppl agreed with me. Because damage has been done, ftr should have 1 ab for spec and 1 for epic spec. Than +1ab/10lvls. That's it. Really it don't needs anymore buffs. It has feat each 2 lvls, you can be any aligment. That's the best option. Giving ac to 1ab/1lvl classes is just dumb (remmember wm problems), if they can be any another class.

Matz wrote:

like i said before, and most ppl agreed with me. Because damage has been done, ftr should have 1 ab for spec and 1 for epic spec. Than +1ab/10lvls. That's it. Really it don't needs anymore buffs. It has feat each 2 lvls, you can be any aligment. That's the best option. Giving ac to 1ab/1lvl classes is just dumb (remmember wm problems), if they can be any another class.

I'm with you on not changing Fighter ab bonus to 1/10lvls, but I think the +1ab for Weapon Specialization is good, as is the +3ab for Epic Weapon Specialization. +1ab for each doesn't make much sense to me - I mean, should an epic feat grant the same bonus as a pre-epic feat? Probably not. You could make the case that Epic Prowess does that, but it applies to all melee attacks - it's not limited to just one weapon, and any class can take it. Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization are unique to Fighter, and should grant a little bit more of a bonus.

Look at it this way - a lot of builds that normally would have have CoT in them for some extra feats and saves are now looking to Fighter for some extra feats and attack bonus. It's a trade-off: would you rather have +4ab and several extra feats for taking 6 or more fighter levels in your build, or would you rather have +1 to all saves per two levels of Champion of Torm, along with almost as many bonus feats (some of which are better choices too, depending on your build)?

For instance, I made a 29 bard 6 Fighter 5 Harper scout. I took the fighter levels for the +ab, even though CoT would have been all around better choice. So, while my saves are still pretty good, they're not crazy good - my ab is a little better, but not crazy better. I could have had 56 Fortitude easy on that build, but I settled for right around 50 and got more ab for it. Was it a good trade? Maybe. But I think that having that kind of option makes for more interesting building.

i understand that epic and normal shouldn't give the same ab and it's unlogical, but it feat the balance. Cut 2 ab from low lvl ftr (they still are fine, Actually bard hs ftr is really good 64ab toon, with crazy taunt (charisma potion)) And it dosn't hurt 10+lvls toons like paladin hs ftr because it cuts only 1 ab from them. Think about it this way.

how was there a problem with wm? there was no issue, the issue was that enough classes such as fighter and ranger were buffed to make a more even playing field. now with this change you will see a ton of variety in fighter builds, and also a lot more ranger builds. I'm very excited to start making new tanks. these kinds of changes were made on dex and cormyr and they allowed people to have a lot variety in builds, so... I think it's a good idea. fighter and ranger aren't going to be op. however the next step I would say would be good to allow for more build variety would be elimination of alignment restrictions.

Even -if- every build in existence had 78 AC for 8 rounds and WM just had it's 71 perm AC, having 70 ab pretty much means the WM wrecks them -anyway-, infinite crits alldayeveryday, simply from pure damage alone it will shred other builds. The only way WM can work is if fighter doesn't work for WM(no ab bonus from fighter). The only -fair- thing about this would be if the WM has -no AC-, as it was.

PEOPLE AREN'T GETTING IT..... BUILDS CANNOT HAVE 65+ AB AND 70+ AC AND 80+ DISCIPLINE BY THEMSELVES. IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW BAD THEY ARE AGAINST OTHER THINGS, THEY LITERALLY DOMINATE THE MELEE MARKET(RIP DIVERSITY). THE FACT WM GETS SUPER CRITS ON TOP OF THIS SHATTERED IT MASSIVELY. Think about it people.... If the average ab builds can get is roughly 64(which is the average) and the average AC builds can get is 74-77. A build with 70+ AC AND 70+ ab, immediately hits all these average AC builds and dodges[fairly frequently] their attacks. We noticed this in the tournament where my 64 ab bard is getting hit... Every...Single...Time... With...Crits and a full 2 rounds of my attacks just missed. Sure I rolled shitty, but it doesn't matter, without a cleric healing me -twice- from the WM alone, I would die -anyway-.

Fighter/WM ab: 30(Base)+4(focuses, prowess)+19(48 str)+4(specializations)+6(WM Bonus, 25)+1(bard song self) = 64+weapon

Fighter/WM ac: 10(base)+8(dex mod)+8(kevlar, 7 magical+1 base)+6(gold amulet)+8(tower shield)+5(boots)+4(haste)+5(deflection)+8(tumble)+2(armor skin)+6(WM bonus, 25)+1(dodge feat)+1(mage armor) = 72(though I feel like I'm missing something here)

Pal/fighter/HS is BARELY legal, I mean really so close to needing a nerf. With it's 70 ab, near or at 80 AC, and almost 80 disc.

wm does not dominate melee pvp, it will not dominate melee pvp when you put in fighter changes, WHICH WILL in effect nerf wm really hard. currently has ~68 ab self and it will go down to 66 self ab. wm doesn't have great saves or ac. I don't know why you are making all these assumptions when we haven't even put in the new changes to make stuff more fair. once you put in fighter change and ranger dodge item you will be seeing a lot more tank builds. caster changes are going to completely change everything as well.

if this doesn't convince you then I will just say that wms were buffed on dex and they were NOT the best tank build, they were one of the good tank builds but definitely not the best. and they got even more bonus's on that server, disc bonus for str wms so you could gimp even harder as well as +1 dmg per wm ab increase so 28 wm was +7 dmg.

I wouldn't be quick to jump to conclusions when you have not even put other stuff in, which really it should all go in at the same time so people don't cry about huge imbalances.