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 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon

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InjecterX



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PostSubject: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:16 pm

Very Happy


Last edited by InjecterX on Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Max_Damage



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PostSubject: Re: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:57 am

I think dexterity builds are out of control. 78-82 ac, 67 ab 80 disc and 50 fort.

Only way to counter is mage with high dc will spells?

str builds are getting ~ 73 ac(maybe 76-77 for pala/bg rdd), ~66 ab(dev 48 dc).
dever builds are getting ~64-66 ab, ~68-69 ac, dev dc 52.
even +-1 ab/ac is huge and we have +-5-10 Smile)))) between str based and dex based:))) 48 dc dev isnt worth this diffirence IMO because 5-10 ac penalty is 2-3 times increase in damage taken.

Str builds cant exploit neither disc nor fort on dex chars. Both are at the point they make dev and kd attacks ineffective. hence why i complained when Highv added ~+4-6 disc to everyone. Pretty much everyone became unkdable and undevable.

pretty much dex tanks >>>> str tanks amirite?

can you further increase fort on this char? using crafting. you could just take grt fort and have +2 fort -1 ac -1 ab otherwise or dumped ikd and kept ac/ab intact.

for reference ab - disc vs chance to kd
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ab - disc is usually ~ -14 at least giving you a nice 5% chance to kd Very Happy(IF you manage to land an IKD attack) and around ~ 15% chance when cursed. Look, 80 disc is way way too much (IMO).

Imo str builds should be able to acheive their mediocre ac/ab and still have both 50 fort and 80 disc, but dex builds need to pay with less disc/fort. I mean less disc fort which actually make a diffirence because 80 disc and 86 disc is pretty much the same in regards to their effect on gameplay.

chance to hit a 80 ac character with 66-4=62 ab ikd is close to 5%. And you further give us 5% probability to knockdown? this is 0.25% chance lol. knockdown game vs tanks just isnt there.
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PostSubject: Re: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:17 pm

my str tank has 76 ac/69 ab and floors dexxers all the time. Argument is invalid. I see str tank kill all the time, infact the ranger gets killed to str tank all the time.
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Highv Priest
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PostSubject: Re: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:46 pm

Injecter is right, dexers suffer more then just from will saves in most situations, the usual problem for them being damage really. Str based builds are just actually able to kill things, whereas even ranger dexers tend to be pretty easy to ignore so long as they don't land a hit every single second. You also must understand it is...

43(base)+13(focuses)+4(royal thieves)+4(iron sights)+4(belt, boots, bracers, shield)+8(str mod) = 76 disc. on your average dexer. They could make amulet and armor also have discipline for 78 disc, but in that case they lose 2 AC, 3 fort, and 1 to will/reflex(not a good trade). However we must also note the tremendous sacrifice it'd take just to get 78 disc. You use up an item property slot on all items of gear, suffer from horrific will saves, and have no useful skills for your build. Whereas a str based can ignore this. Instead the str based build can grab bonuses to all his saves, bonuses to all his important skills(taunt being a good one with +4 on every item), and have a large amount of regen(about 14-16) to boot. In addition to the sacrifices I noted above towards armor and amulet.

If anything discipline bonuses for classes may need to be reduced some as that is how some get an actual 80 disc(ie a harper scout obtains +5 discipline).

The average ab for any build on the server is about 60 or so. If it's not they likely utilize HiPS or Corner Sneaking.

This is because ab was improved for pretty much every single class(except for rogue and shadow dancer).

So lets take the lowest ab I have on a build(not including my HiPSing Archer), 64 roll-4(check) + d20(+4 size bonus for improved kd) vs 78 disc = 84 vs 78 = 35% chance to kd(note that kd happens in ties).

64 is only a general number, my bard has 66 ab(not including his curse song), and I've seen large numbers of builds rolling around with 69 to 72.

Of course that's only if you land a hit in the first place, if AC is that overboard I may need to do some rescaling I suppose.
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InjecterX



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PostSubject: Re: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:18 pm

Average dexxer gets 77-80 ac, with str builds mostly at 67+ ab, I dont feel its OP, but thats just me
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PostSubject: Re: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:50 pm

Highv Priest wrote:
Injecter is right, dexers suffer more then just from will saves in most situations, the usual problem for them being damage really. Str based builds are just actually able to kill things, whereas even ranger dexers tend to be pretty easy to ignore so long as they don't land a hit every single second. You also must understand it is...

43(base)+13(focuses)+4(royal thieves)+4(iron sights)+4(belt, boots, bracers, shield)+8(str mod) = 76 disc. on your average dexer. They could make amulet and armor also have discipline for 78 disc, but in that case they lose 2 AC, 3 fort, and 1 to will/reflex(not a good trade). However we must also note the tremendous sacrifice it'd take just to get 78 disc. You use up an item property slot on all items of gear, suffer from horrific will saves, and have no useful skills for your build. Whereas a str based can ignore this. Instead the str based build can grab bonuses to all his saves, bonuses to all his important skills(taunt being a good one with +4 on every item), and have a large amount of regen(about 14-16) to boot. In addition to the sacrifices I noted above towards armor and amulet.

If anything discipline bonuses for classes may need to be reduced some as that is how some get an actual 80 disc(ie a harper scout obtains +5 discipline).

The average ab for any build on the server is about 60 or so. If it's not they likely utilize HiPS or Corner Sneaking.

This is because ab was improved for pretty much every single class(except for rogue and shadow dancer).

So lets take the lowest ab I have on a build(not including my HiPSing Archer), 64 roll-4(check) + d20(+4 size bonus for improved kd) vs 78 disc = 84 vs 78 = 35% chance to kd(note that kd happens in ties).

64 is only a general number, my bard has 66 ab(not including his curse song), and I've seen large numbers of builds rolling around with 69 to 72.

Of course that's only if you land a hit in the first place, if AC is that overboard I may need to do some rescaling I suppose.

First of all, im just under the impression AC is overboard for dex builds. About disc i ll need to test. Hopefully less people will aggro at me because its just what i think. I used to estimate how good is +-1 ab/ac in a useful situation like 66 ab vs 73-74 ac. It turns out, 1 ab/ac diffirence is like +-20% damage taken/dealt. Bg ftr has like 74 ac or so and dex builds have 78-82. The damage taken given their 66 ab can differ by like 2-2.5 times. Ofc base damage for dexers is lower.

About kd calculations:

i usually thought they go like this:
check to hit: ab-4 vs ac
opposed ab check vs disc: ab-4(+4 if IKD)+d20 vs disc+d20. and its much much lower then what you mention. Instead of 35% its 5% or so. because there s a d20 in each side of the expression not just one side

The graph i ve included is about this calculation. Can you confirm this is a right way to resolve kd checks?

the discipline help in game says: dc is equal to the attacker's attack roll. there s a d20 included in the attack. and to beat a dc you need another d20. see where this is coming from there are TWO diffirent d20s
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Highv Priest
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PostSubject: Re: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:21 pm

I'm actually quite certain the d20 on the disc side is inaccurate. Some time ago I tested regular kd on someone and they failed a roll which was equal to their discipline... Which shouldn't be possible. However I would not mind testing it again. I should only note though... My cleric/rdd has 82 disc and gets "floored" by builds with 66 ab consistently. On rolls less then 20.
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PostSubject: Re: 35/5 ranger/hs Spoon   Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:42 am

Highv Priest wrote:
I'm actually quite certain the d20 on the disc side is inaccurate. Some time ago I tested regular kd on someone and they failed a roll which was equal to their discipline... Which shouldn't be possible. However I would not mind testing it again. I should only note though... My cleric/rdd has 82 disc and gets "floored" by builds with 66 ab consistently. On rolls less then 20.

This would need a proper test because the discipline in game description is unambiguious and it corresponds to the calculation ive done above. The roll similar to Iron Horn's opposed checks.

Maybe make a 0 ac creature with 500/ resistance, 0 attacks and 80 disc and use it as a dummy Very Happy. the diffirence between 35% and 5% in the test should be pretty obvious.

your cleric can be kded by chars with IKD on rolls less then 20. its just very unlikely. For example:

ikd attack roll: 66 - 4 + 19(d20) = 81 : hit
discipline opposed check: 82 + 2(d20)= 84 vs dc ab roll(81) + 4(because ikd gives +4 bonus in disc checks to the attacker) = 85
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