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 Bane of Enemies Buff?

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portmanteau



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PostSubject: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:52 am

Add a +2 AC versus Favored Enemies with Bane of Enemies? A modest increase that matches the +2 AB bonus from it?

If a Ranger specializes in tracking, fighting, and killing a particular enemy, it stands to reason that he/she also better understands how to defend from that enemy's attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:33 pm

That idea has actually been discussed a bit. Some players think ranger could use more AC, others claim ranger is already good(Matz for instance). I lean more towards the AC bonus, but I haven't adequately tested out the options to know for sure yet what works best.  scratch 
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:43 pm

ranger dodge item based on wisdom! gogogo! made rangers fun on dex, you already have the ab buff from blade thirst. I rly enjoyed playing rangers on dex. bhaal also gave rangers +1 apr for using a large two-handed weapon or dual wielding, that was cool. i'm sorry but for all these ppl saying rangers are good, 45 fort dex build with 78 ac 64 ab is not strong.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:18 am

lolthatguy wrote:
ranger dodge item based on wisdom! gogogo! made rangers fun on dex, you already have the ab buff from blade thirst. I rly enjoyed playing rangers on dex. bhaal also gave rangers +1 apr for using a large two-handed weapon or dual wielding, that was cool. i'm sorry but for all these ppl saying rangers are good, 45 fort dex build with 78 ac 64 ab is not strong.

I think the best idea to dispel these ideas that ranger would be broken would be to give examples of what builds would have what stats with it. The line crossed that goes from "not quite good enough" to "omfg perfect build with only 1 weakness" can be as small a difference as +5 AC. For example a paladin/RDD, at present if it magically obtained +5 more AC, you have a build with huge ab, good saves in every direction, and an effective tank against attacks. Ironically it's only -real- weakness is harm.(and this is -very- situational, it means instead of being able to actually fight it, your only option is to... Counterlog it and your counterlog can be counterlogged by someone else who wants to block your only win option)

The general idea is to do anything possible to prevent creating situations where you just have a character that is 100% reliable and nothing can legitimately stop it, except another character of that same type or some sort of -very- specific situation that requires an actual setup, because this really goes nowhere, just counterlogging, much like smiters, and even then you have to hope that the setup works and they don't just hard-counter your setup so there perfect guy can keep smashing you anyway lol.(IE DC caster trying to abuse will save on a build only to get counterspell spammed until the tank with huge ab eventually kills it)

I have no qualms making changes to anything so long as I avoid the issue of an "ideal" character. So following this ideology if the AC boost for ranger will not create rangers with 80+ disc and 65+ ab and near 80 AC AND 45+ fort, it works. Note, temporary ab bonuses that are ultimately moot from short durations are not counted, nor are situational specific.(IE true strike and/or flanking). The reflex and will saves are negligible, as a ranger is a -warrior- type build and it can only be compared to other -warrior- type builds. Strategy plays well, but incorporating team elements also incorporates anti-counters to your counters and doesn't really fix the issue of how powerful that -warrior- is compared to the others.(the mindblank to your stun, the NEP to your harm, the counterspell to your any spells).

Any adjustments to blade thirst to compensate for AC are possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:23 pm

ranger had this buff on dex and believe me, ranger was not the be all end all op build of doom, GRANTED, though it was pretty strong and on par with every other tank build you could think of, each type of tank character on dex had specific strengths and weaknesses. while I had some ranger rdd's on that server that had like 75 ac 68-70 ab, this kind of build is really just a fun alternative to a better fighter tank, which for team fights were a lot more sought after because they had saves, rangers and pal rdd's did not have good enough saves or adequate feats to be useful if there was a mage or cleric running around.

65 + ab 45 fort 80 disc ranger DEX tank? that seems pretty legit and not really an op character. I don't know why you guys want to keep rangers as a subpar class =/

for ranger dodge item I would say have it be available for rangers at level 9 or something and not be allowed if they have +3 monk levels.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:37 pm

there were also some dex ranger builds on dex that had insane stats, were these characters necessarily op? no, not in the slightest bit, even some of them having like 67 ab 82 ac self with seemingly good damage for a dex tank, 40-50. even saw stew make a ranger wm build and it had like 70 ab or some crap with good ac, still these characters were easily thwarted because rangers in general have pretty lack luster saves and low hp, being a dex tank.

the ONLY thing that I have ever seen on dex that was a HUGE problem were champions of torm with x3 usage per day. that was absolutely fkin retarded and just so stupid on a level that I can't even really begin to describe. I don't know how that change got put in when Ness re-hosted the server but some brain dead moron left it there.

these things had 72 ab, 80 ac, IKD and huge saves across the board, over 50 for each one, on top of this their damage was insane, like 50-60 and most of it was all rare damage from divine favor, cot wrath and some people used divine might to get even more. they were elves so they had keen senses and good detect so they were pretty much unsneakable as well. on top of this they had large amounts of UMD, like high 50's or so, so they could spam mantle scrolls and greater breach all they wanted. there was no other tank build that came close to this in raw power, this thing didn't even need a team to buff it's ab because it was already capped... this build had 0 weaknesses, until bhaal finally nerfed cots. this is probably really the only time i've ever seen a specific class be really op on dex, this also occurred before when some moronic dev gave cots 2x duration for wrath and x3 usage per day, pretty much everyone just played cots, monk cots, any kind of cot. server died shortly after this iirc.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:30 pm

I think you're over-thinking this. +2ac on a Ranger is not a significant buff. It's just enough to make builds that were on the verge of usefulness a little more viable, but not enough to make other builds terribly unbalanced.

Let's look at the PM Ranger, for starters, since that's probably a concern. A strength-based Bard PM Ranger with 10 levels of PM (so, a 26 4 10 Rgr Brd Pm), and without Epic Mage Armor is getting around 69ac with Gold Dragon Armor and Mage Armor scroll, but without a Gold Amulet. This build has enough favored enemy feats available to cover all 7 playable races. So, he's got 71ac versus anyone that isn't shifted into another form, mid to high 60's AB depending on how you build it, and it's starved for epic feats because you spent all 3 ranger bonus feats on covering all of the playable races.

How about a Dex-based version? Let's assume you manage to get 48 Dexterity on this build, which is pretty reasonable for an elf with 20 starting Dex. You're looking at 78ac without Iron Shroud, Mage Armor scroll, and Gold Amulet, and 81ac with them. Now that's pushed to 83ac with a BoE buff. That's a pretty high AC for sure, but you've got problems - no uncanny dodge, FTS scroll spam, and Breach/Horn. You could mitigate the FTS scroll spam somewhat with Lichskull, but then you're losing Spot/Listen from Ryuji or Discipline from Thieves Hood (and you really need discipline, don't you?).

Let's take this a step further. Let's say you build that rare and wonky PM Bard Ranger that DOES have Epic Mage Armor. Well, you *can* go 20 4 16, but then you can't get Bane of Enemies. So, you're left with a feat-starved 21 4 15. Let's unpack this some more: 21 Ranger levels means you've only got 4/7 playable races covered with BoE. Your ac on both Strength and Dexterity versions is now 7 higher, but 5 of that is Dodge AC and you still don't have Uncanny Dodge. Pretty much the maximum AC you're reasonably going to get with a Dexterity-based version of this build is 90ac, and while on paper that sure looks hard to hit, it's not much different than 88ac, now is it? Most people are still going to need 20's to hit you, but you still have all of the above vulnerabilities that can be exploited.

Sure, you might "pwn some nubs" in 1v1 duels versus builds that can't exploit your vulnerabilities, but like anything else in this game, that is going to be situational.

But wait - let's look at another Ranger build that might stand to benefit from this buff, will be made somewhat more viable, but not even close to overpowered - a Ranger Monk Harper Scout, dex-based dual kukri halfling (my personal favorite).

Built right, a 25 10 5 version of this build should get, with Blade Thirst + Mysterias around 67ab while dual wielding. Sounds great, right? Well, it also only gets 74ac without Iron Shoud or Gold Amulet, but with a Mage Armor scroll. It only has BoE against 4/7 playable races. Is +2AC versus those 4 races going to unbalance this build? Certainly not. If you really want that +2AC versus every playable race, and also get a couple of bonus feats, you're either looking at adding another class that gets epic bonus feats easily (Fighter, CoT, Harper Scout) which limits your options, or going at least 29/30/32 Ranger, which is a pretty huge commitment for any build.

Still, I'd be interested in seeing examples of how this buff could overpower any Ranger build, and the math behind it.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:03 pm

a ranger dodge item based off of wisdom, so avg of 8 modifier for most ranger builds, would not be op either. not in the slightest bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:36 pm

lolthatguy wrote:
a ranger dodge item based off of wisdom, so avg of 8 modifier for most ranger builds, would not be op either. not in the slightest bit.


Well, not if it was something like Deflection AC (so no stacking), and it only applied to non-monk, non-PM, and non-RDD rangers, and only while using a bow or dual-wielding. Otherwise, that's kinda way over the top.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:24 pm

its dodge ac based on your wisdom modifier, only restriction is +3 monk cannot get it. and no it is not way over the top, in no way shape or form. there are other changes going into the server so its not like we're are only buffing ranger.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:38 pm

lolthatguy wrote:
its dodge ac based on your wisdom modifier, only restriction is +3 monk cannot get it. and no it is not way over the top, in no way shape or form. there are other changes going into the server so its not like we're are only buffing ranger.


Well then, provide some math and some examples. What kind of AC would builds X, Y, or Z expect to get with this buff?
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:05 am

take whatever ranger char you have and add + 8 ac, mind you that it runs out after 8 rounds similar to paladin and cleric's divine shield. fighter will have the same thing, if you come up with some op concept, post it here. mind you rangers have terrible saves and for the most part are feat starved, so really there's no op ranger build of doom out there, not even with this change, not even close. this same change was made on another server and there were no problems. though they did opt to cap blade thirst at 3 ab max.

ranger blade thirst may need to be rescaled to 1/8 ab per levels instead of 1/5.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:58 pm

It's dodge AC however, so not all ranger builds would get an extra +8. Those that already got druid or cleric/pal/BG divine shield or bard, would only gain 3 more AC max(11 max dodge bonus - 8 ranger = 3).
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:17 am

Quote :
Those that already got druid or cleric/pal/BG divine shield
 Very Happy much profit
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:48 am

In comparison however, ranger is not far off....

4+int mod skills
1+1 damage, spot, listen, and taunt for every 5 levels of ranger(+6 damage/spot/listen/taunt for 25)
against favored enemies.
+2 static ab and an -additional- 2d6 damage against favored enemies as well
Useful spells(ultravision, grease, camouflage, one with the land, aid, purge, freedom, mass camo, and now blade thirst(of which only it can cast)).
Spot/listen/set traps
Free dual weilding at level 9(provided using light armor or less, dual weilding normally requiring 13+ dex mod and THREE feats to use)
Free bonus feats at level 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35; optional as to what the ranger chooses in epic levels, IN ADDITION TO IT'S EPIC FEAT PER 3 LEVELS NORMALLY.
+1/1 ab
On hit regen half class level, -every- hit. In update this is fixed to roll on top of flame weapon.
Blade Thirst giving +1 per 5 ranger levels mainhand, +1 per 4 ranger levels off hand ab.
Blade Thirst increases weapon power, A +3 bonus from blade thirst to mainhand makes a +5 weapon count as +8(MASSIVE BENEFIT).
When dispelled only needing to cast 2 buffs for ab(compared to paladin 4, one of which is short duration).
ANY ALIGNMENT

Paladin:
2+int mod skills
Immunity to NORMAL FEAR(not terrifying rage from barbarian).
Useful spells(Bless, bless weapon, deafening clang, divine favor, aid, dispel magic(great for AOES, SOON TO BE SCROLLS), prayer, deathward, freedom, and holysword.
Taunt.
+1/1 ab
Holysword giving.... Well pretty much just 16 spell resistance and 1d8 divine against evil.
Needs to cast 4 ab buffs to regain it's full ab after a dispel(2 of each are short duration).
Charisma modifier added to saves.
Divine shield POSSIBLE, at the cost of 13+ strength, power attack, and divine shield taken as feats.
Single instance of heal at character levelxcharisma modifier.
Requires lawful good.


I mean when you take everything into consideration... It's like the ONLY THINGS that makes paladin even a good choice when compared against ranger is that it can get AC and saves. Ranger gets pretty much everything else. More skills, better skill choices(though taunt is pretty cool, ironically though ranger is a better taunter then paladin lolz), free dual weilding, bonus feats, penetration against forms of DR(epic warding being the most important, but I wouldn't put it past me to put DR on other monsters/bosses), and on hit regen.

What's the incentive for paladin? The boost to saves is nice, but if that's the ONLY difference, I'd rather build a ranger CoT, and just WRECK THINGS with my ab, or in contrast, go full on ranger/harper scout.

CoT being +1 saves per 2 and harper +1 per 1..... The fact you can just combine ranger with ANYTHING means it pretty much trumps paladin every time.

If ranger DOES get divine shield it needs to cost as much if not more to get it.

Proposed idea:
*Requires dodge feat(13+ dex)
*AC bonus and duration equal to wisdom modifier
*AC is against favored enemies.
*AC negates natural bonuses from other classes.

With this implementation a ranger with default favored enemies can hope to defend against only so many races.
Excluding the Crag Smoging races, which Hexis thinks are shit(halfling and gnome), your average ranger

needs human, half-elf, elf, half-orc, dwarf, dragon, and construct(ranger gets 5 favoreds by level 20 from 1, 5, 10, 15, 20), thus a ranger only needs to invest 2 extra favored enemies to cover the last 2 races(if Hexis considers dragon and construct worth covering, I would, but I'd consider covering halfling too, having -8 AC against anything is brutal)

Your generic ranger/rdd(26/4/10) does manage to defend against pretty much any race because of it's large amount of bonus feats(23,25,26), but a ranger/PM does not, but the implementation of this is quite fair.

On one hand, only a select number of races are really used, but on the other hand, IF someone used one of these normally un-used races, the ranger suffers such a massive penalty against them, thus if the ranger -really- wants to be balanced it would be wise to cover all the races it can, which can vary in the amount of investment for feats.

Lastly the cost of ab for a ranger/rdd by needing to get 13+ dex and take dodge as a feat hurts it in two places, the loss of feats hurts because it actually puts dev as requiring epic feats and improved knockdown not far off.

A ranger/rdd gets feats at 1(+1 possible if human), 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18(7, 8 with human) and if it intends to take dev, that means it needs to have the following feats: weapon focus, improved critical, power attack, cleave, Blindfight(slightly arguable with purge) and great cleave, now you add dodge on top of this and you've used up all 6, you don't even have skill focus discipline or great fortitude, but using human you can get this.

Still NOW your build lacks kd, so you're really hoping on that dev to work. Thus it's unlikely people  would intentionally use ranger/rdd for dev. So lets go with the not dev option: weapon focus, dodge, skill focus discipline, great fort, blindfight, kd, improved kd, perhaps another feat using human(probably
improved critical).

This is workable, so with the 16 strength I was able to get making my ranger/rdd at base(human) I ended up with 50 strength(but I took epic disc, epic fort, and armor skin). So the ab calculates to: 30(base)+20(50 strength)+4(focuses, prowess)+2(bane)+1(aid)+5(25 ranger, doesn't hit the 30 ranger bonus)+1(self bard song)+weapon bonus = 63+weapon, landing it at 70 ab possible, pretty much the same as pally/rdd(more easily obtains 52 strength).

It's AC comes to(and this is max): 10(base)+8(dex mod)+8(Kevlar, 1 base+7 magical)+6(gold  amulet)+8(tower shield)+5(deflection)+5(boots)+4(haste)+4(10 RDD)+1(dodge feat, though  situational)+8(tumble)+2(armor skin)+11(possible magical dodge) = 80, however on it's own it only gets 78 and 1 of this is not effective against flanking, then subtract 4 from RDD's natural benefit. It lands on 74(with dodge) and 73(without).(4 or more of it's AC effective only against select races, which the ranger may or may not encounter)

The case is the same for PM with the exception of minusing 6 for 10 PM and zero AC benefit for 12 PM or more.

With monk it's -1 per 5(does not cancel out monks wisdom bonus, ranger/monks get fairly crap AC  even dex based, fairly unnecessary to cancel this from it, my disarmer monk with max dex for instance is 73 AC, since it's 18 monk it'd get 5, and it's dex based with something like 60 discipline).

Essentially with this you get an AC bonus the rangers not only have to work for, but cancels out any free bonus to AC as well.


The only other acceptable option would be to pretty much just nerf the sh** out of blade thirst and even then, ranger is probably used more then half the time. Paladin gets a lot, but it's limited as hell to.

Considering how a ranger/rdd is pulling -70- ab on this server with a +5 from blade thirst and it was +3 on DeX, the only logical explanation for ranger not just WRECKING EVERYTHING is the type of items available and mages/DC casters in pretty much -every- fight. Considering the item economy on this server however, rangers getting a divine shield for free would literally turn the ranger/RDD into a [hackable, IE Confusion spell]tank composed of indestructible materials that shoots nuclear missiles. I mean DAMN, with generic ranger/rdd without dodge feat, it's AC is still -78-.WITH 70 SELF AB and even if blade thirst was +3 it'd be 68 SELF.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:17 am

you keep jumping from one op build to the next (ermagerd rangerdd, ermagerd pal rdd, ermagerd fighter wm) PPL ONLY GUNNA USE RANGER RDD, PEOPLE ONLY GUNNA USE FIGHT WM. why don't we just see how stuff goes once all the changes are in
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:41 pm

Honestly, I think this would be so much easier by just implementing my original suggestion of a +2 dodge AC buff versus Favored Enemies with Bane of Enemies feat. It prevents 80ac strength tanks from happening, and gives a small boost to Ranger, which, frankly, is all it needs.

I'm with Highv on this: Ranger has lots of other things besides AC and AB to even it out with Paladin - more skill points, better skillset (traps/spot/hide/ms), free improved two-weapon fighting, camo/mass camo.

All Ranger really need is a small AC buff for Bane of Enemies. That's it. Blade Thirst is fine. Everything else is fine.

As it stands, I can already make a 30 ranger 5 paladin 5 harper scout dex build with divine shield that gets 70ab and 80ac - just like a Pal/Ftr/Hs, and ALSO has better skills, and can probably corner sneak (with hide and ms close to or over 90) or set traps or taunt (with taunt skill close to 80). Sure, it has no uncanny dodge (neither does pal/ftr/hs) and is somewhat vulnerable to horn, and isn't going to do tons of damage, but it's arguably just as good as Pal/Ftr/Hs on almost all counts, except that it's feat-starved pre-epic and probably can't take IKD. Try to make the same thing Strength-based and its AC is total crap, maybe hitting 71.

Thing is, this is how melee builds work: Strength builds hit often, hit hard, and are relatively easy to hit. Dex builds hit often, don't hit hard, and are relatively hard to hit. Adding a small AC buff of +2 isn't going to upset this balance - it's going to help offset the average AB increase of about 4ab that many builds now have from weapon specialization. And that's it. That's why I suggested it in the first place.

I think it's as simple as that. Maybe the above change to adding a sort of "divine shield" worked on DeX... but this isn't DeX - it's Badlands. And DeX was not without its own issues, I'm sure, especially given that the creator(s) of the Badlands module were former DeX players and made it to improve PvP balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Bane of Enemies Buff?   Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:10 am

dex was really only made a good and balanced server once ezruman and bhaal made good changes. before that I didn't play on dex at all.

I don't think +2 ac for bane is good enough. with the stuff that other classes are getting this is pretty much essential that they get a decent ac dodge item. it's not going to be overpowered.

if a str ranger tank had keen senses, 100 spot, 72 ab IKD, 80 ac, 50 all saves and 100 heal per kit. I would say that is over powered. that is a huge exaggeration but that was basically what one "overpowered build" I've seen before, and it was the only thing i've ever seen that was truly broken. ranger is not going to be made into this.

however I would say that certain things should stack: (will edit later)
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